The only argument I've thought of that is an example of government forcing people to insure themselves, is with car insurance.. but you can always choose not to drive. So with this one, what options do I have except to choose not to breath?

old meme

Care to elaborate, or is that all you can manage to contribute?

no not really, because this thread will devolve into the usual. you've come out with some batshit right wing rhetoric, someone will post some valid points, you'll choose to ignore it in your self righteous manner, and no one in the arguement will have been enriched in anyway. And considering the fact that you don't really post on this site until something like this rolls along, it's sort of what you're inviting.

So i'm nipping it in the bud now and calling it "old meme"

yawn. the bill is not great, but its a step in the right direction. end.

I do actually post in threads from time to time, and no, it's usually not on political issues. I thought that perhaps someone could explain the aforementioned question to me, as I truly don't understand how the two items in question can coexist. I mean, I know the majority of GTI is liberal or left leaning, so perhaps you have it all figured out.. I know I certainly don't.

C'est la vie.

skanko: I agree with some parts of the bill - like the fact that pre-existing conditions for children will no longer be applicable at some point this year. And that young adults can be covered by their parent until age 26, regardless of college enrollment. So yes, it's a step in the right direction. You don't answer my question though.

Also when you pose a topic like this, it's pretty clear from your militant stance up there that you don't want someone to explain to you why this bill is a huge step for people in this country who have heretofore not had health care, you want someone to try so you can beat them about the face and neck with your crazy stick.

If you make enough money that your insurance isn't subsidized, you can afford the bills and laughable fine, so don't sweat it. Also, lets face it, your plan is likely provided through your job at that point.

If you're an entrepreneur, there are tax breaks for providing yourself insurance through the company.

Yeah, the "mandate" is a shit sandwich, but at least there's some condiments to help it go down until such time as it's revised into a basic plan for all.

Jubilee: As someone without heath insurance, I understand the necessity of health care reform. I also agree that while this bill is making progress, I still don't understand how it will be "constitutionally legal", that is to say something that won't at some point be shot down in it's entirety for small faults that could have easily been omitted.

Mister C: But is it not against the constitution for government to force a citizen to buy a consumer product, or pay a penalty for not doing it?

I am honestly trying not to be argumentative - as I've agreed with any logical points that have been brought up.. but you've all failed to address the actual content of my question - is it, or is it not going to get shot down for being unconstitutional?

It boils down to: no, it is not unconstitutional for the government to govern.

I had a longer explanation, but if you really don't see how that's the case I'm not gonna be able to convince you.

I would like a longer explanation or at least some elaboration, please. I understand your statement, but I'm not sure how it applies here.

Just like the gov't can say "No, you cant' kidnap people and take them across state lines (changed for a federal crime), and this is what will happen if you do" it's allowed to say "No, you can't NOT be insured. This is what will happen if you do not have insurance" Which in this case is "we will give you money to get insurance if you can't afford it, or charge you a fine."

Can you please refer me to where the constitution, or any law, rather that says the government is allowed to force people to spend on a certain product? This I guess is the big hangup for me...

Does it say where they arent?

I have to ask, did you not have a civics class?

It's a tax penalty. It only applies if you're making enough money to be paying taxes. I'm not a huge fan of the policy, but it doesn't violate the takings clause.

Were it simply a fine, it *would* be a blatant violation of the takings clause of the constitution.

Skanko: Not that I'm aware of, but I still don't like the idea.
Mister C: Yes, but it's been ages and ages, and I for the most part try to stay out of politics and governmental issues.
Centro: So, if my income is under feral poverty, then I don't have to buy insurance, nor will I be penalized for not doing do? Or is there some other level of income?

well, if you're under poverty, you COULD not buy insurance.... or you could go ahead and get the subsidy/utilize expanded medicaid and be better off. You know, the point of the whole thing.

@beccah. If you pay any income tax at all, even if you get it refunded to you, you're subject to penalties. But if you're under the poverty line, you should be able to get subsidized coverage.

Gracias Centro, Mister C.

I appreciate that you can have a conversation without bashing. :)

I love you twigby!!!!!

I'll take a bite.

Health care is NOT a consumer product. Emergency rooms are required BY LAW to treat someone who is sick, unless they have been evaluated by a doctor and deemed not in need of emergency services. You get these services regardless of ability to pay.

Ambulances are required to pick up someone who is sick or injured and take them to a hospital, regardless of ability to pay. Even if you are racing your motorcycle drunk at 100 mph drunk down a mountain road without a helmet and have a wreck, if you've got anything resembling a pulse when the ambulance gets there, you are going to the hospital, regardless of your ability to pay.

The government is not forcing anyone to buy a consumer product. What they are doing is trying with stick's and carrots is to get people to pay at least some share of what they are already getting.

The alternative to this would be a world where the ambulance runs a credit check before it loads you up, and big burly type bouncer guys keep little old ladies from entering the hospital unless they can pay, and watching them die out in the parking lot if they can't.

All the rad shit that modern medicine can do, like chemotherapy, dialysis and open heart surgery, people want and pretty much expect when they are sick. Medicine, at it's current rate, will only cost more and people live much longer than they used to.

Something like this has to be done, because in 20 years the whole system would grind to a halt.